INTERVIEW: WAITING FOR CERTAINTY IS THE BIGGEST RISK

Transcript

Phillippa Wraithmell: Hello and welcome back to The EdTech Podcast. Im your host, Phillippa Wraithmell, and in this episode were joined by Dan Fitzpatrick, educator, author, adviser, and one of the voices helping schools and systems make sense of artificial intelligence beyond the headlines. Dans journey into AI wasnt driven by disruption for disruptions sake. It started like many of ours do with a simple question. How can technology genuinely make education better, fairer, and more manageable for teachers and learners? Since then, his work has taken him from classroom and leadership roles into global conversations around AI strategy, ethics, accessibility, and decision making in education. Working with schools, governments, and organizations, navigating one of the biggest shifts our sector has ever faced.

In this conversation, we explore what it really means to lead in uncertainty. Why waiting for perfect clarity can be more risky than acting and how schools can move beyond frameworks and policies into thoughtful human centered practice. This is a grounded, honest discussion about judgment, courage, equity, and what comes after compliance.

Phillippa Wraithmell: Welcome Dan. It is fantastic to have you on The EdTech Podcast. Very much been following your journey over the past few years and it has been incredible to watch. Please, for our listeners internationally, would you give everybody a little bit of information about you, what you do, and what makes you so passionate?

Dan Fitzpatrick: Yeah of course. Its amazing to be with you and really looking forward to our talk. My name is Dan and I was a secondary school teacher in the UK and moved into secondary leadership, then moved into further education, a director role in leadership, always with a passion for educational technology.

I remember training to be a teacher and being baffled by how cloud technology had just started to take off and nobody was using it. That really intrigued me. I thought, why first of all, and secondly how do I tell people about this? In a basic way, students could access resources from anywhere at any time on any device. Why wouldnt we be using this?

And we were doing, can you remember, it feels like so long ago and this feels like some kind of relic, but can you remember when you used to have to mirror a computer to get into it? If you were at home and you needed to get to your work folders you would have to use some kind of, what did they call it? There was like a Microsoft version.

Phillippa Wraithmell: I absolutely know what you mean because it was one of the first things that I got taught as a middle leader. It was like, oh and now you can do this, and I was like wow. I actually, again, I think even as an edtechy myself, I dont think I ever really did it. I was a bit like, Im all right actually. It was always just so clunky and it would bring up what your screen at school would look like.

Dan Fitzpatrick: Yeah. And then none of the files would actually open. But anyway, I got passionate about, along with a few friends in my department, how do we tell people about this technology, how do we evangelize, trying to make peoples lives a bit easier. That was a thread through my teaching early career.

Then one of the guys in my department, Ben Whitaker, we started a podcast together. We started the podcast as an extension of what we were banging on about in our school, to tell people about this technology. As we started down that route, we realized this was much bigger than just edtech because once you get into it, you get into the future of education. If technology is going to advance as much as we are led to believe it is, what does it mean for the future of education? That became a real passion alongside my career.

I eventually found myself as a director for innovation and digital at a large group of colleges in the northeast of England. I remember putting together a five year strategy for innovation and decided to spend a bit of time in local industries. This was probably about 2021. I asked somebody what technology are you starting to look at, what are you starting to use, and they told me about essentially what would become ChatGPT.

It really intrigued me. If we can give some of this power to our teachers, helping them get through masses of work. In further education, a lot of coursework, portfolio work, and giving teachers the ability to pick out key information. So we started to look at how artificial intelligence and language models could help. We started to trial and explore it.

Then out of the blue, OpenAI released ChatGPT. I was like, my goodness. I wasnt expecting that capability for another ten years. I remember the last day of November 2022 playing around with it and posting a screenshot, you can do a screenshot on your phone as a video, and I did a quick video of me typing something really basic, like write a lesson plan for me. Back in 2022 that was mind blown.

I started posting little things like that online because I didnt see anybody else doing it from an education point of view. It had only been out a few days. Those started to go viral very quickly. My lifes been a whirlwind since then. I think it was the first of January one of my messages went really viral, and by the end of January I was sitting in the Good Morning Britain studio sat next to Richard Madeley, being labeled as an AI expert within the space of a month, just thinking what is going on with my life.

It happened really quickly. I left my job within further education, got a book deal, wrote The AI Classroom within a few months because the publisher said this is urgent, lets get it out as fast as possible. I had two weeks holiday left before I left the job, so I took that, got up at four every morning and wrote the core of the book within a couple of weeks.

Now Im really lucky and fortunate that a big part of my job is travelling around different schools, districts, colleges, universities around the world. Most of my work is in the UK and in the United States at the moment, and I work with teachers, work with leaders, helping them get their heads around this, build their skill sets, but also look at the strategic side and where we go. I work with a few governments as well on an advisory role and write a lot. I write for Forbes every week on this subject and books as well. Thats kind of my journey, but it parallels the journey the world has been going on over the last few years as well.

Phillippa Wraithmell: Absolutely. It really does. And it really resonated when you said it feels like it was such a long time ago. I feel like theres been such a rapid pace of change since that moment in November that actually weve all gone through such a shift and such a huge trajectory thats been flown across all of us and everything has been shaken up.

One of the things Ive written down was viral. Like all the kids these days, theyre all like, I just want to go viral. Without expecting it, as you say, just a teacher getting on with it because you really enjoy it and youre interested and curious, how did that feel?

Dan Fitzpatrick: To be honest, in the moment youre not thinking, oh Im going viral, does this mean Im an influencer now. Its more like people, it was genuine connection because it was literally every time I put something out, most people, it was the first time they were seeing things like this.

So I would get so many DMs, so many messages, so many requests for, can you jump on a call and talk to me about this, and I genuinely responded to everything. I dont know how I did it, but I did. I would stay up late talking to people.

Going back to those early days when I was training to be a teacher and wanting to tell people about the technology and how it could help them, it was kind of that but on a bigger scale. I really wanted to talk to people. One reason was because when you show people the power of the technology and the benefits for the first time, it blows their mind. Even just seeing that reaction as someone sharing it was a bit addictive. Peoples minds were being blown in a good way where they thought, my goodness, this could really help me.

I always feel guilty now. If I sat down and replied to everything now, I would never see my family. There is a certain percentage that I dont reply to now. I always feel really bad, but I just cant unless I somehow train an AI agent to do it.

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Phillippa Wraithmell: No. And I think thats realistic. Hopefully people understand that. Its like many people, they just cant cover all those different types of inboxes. Imagine if you went onto every single social media you had and did that.

What I think is lovely and I feel that really comes across is that passion just to help and support people. Thats something thats always driven me about edtech, the tech thats really great is solving those problems. Its tech that is helping people to do their job better, to access learning in a better way, a more manageable way for them. Hugely into accessibility tech. Those sorts of things are really enabling.

We were talking to the World Bank not long ago about the equality and equity around AI and actually lots of different countries that are not the western countries, they havent got the abundance, are using this as an opportunity to leverage and move forwards and to prosper. And its phenomenal the difference that these things are making in a really positive way.

Dan Fitzpatrick: Yeah. And thats, I think especially at the moment, theres a lot of, and rightfully so, theres a lot of conversations around the dangers and the risks around technology. We have movements even in the last year, Jonathan Haidt in the United States and The Anxious Generation, and an almost anti tech movement starting to build, along with some big risks with AI.

I often describe AI to teachers as a balance, like the traditional scales. The more we lean into the benefits, the more the risks bear down on us. Its not a bad thing that we want to mitigate against these risks, especially when our primary care is young people in education.

However, I think sometimes we rush past the benefits really quickly. We forget some of this really does help. You touched on accessibility. Literally some of our kids could not survive without the technology and what it enables them to do. I think we are still scratching the surface. We are feeling in the dark around whats going to work, what doesnt work.

I was reading, in fact I did a critique on my LinkedIn yesterday of a New York Times article that presented the skeptics view of AI and education. The main argument was look at the movement for one to one devices in schools, it hasnt improved learning outcomes. There are so many holes in that argument. Just because something hasnt worked in the past doesnt mean we shouldnt keep trying to improve education and outcomes for students. If we were afraid of failure, wed be stuck all the time.

We still need excitement around could this work, trying it out, innovating in a safe way, but not being too scared to touch it because we are scared of everything that might happen.

You know what, this is a really big thing. Ive been thinking about this morning. Every year I put a survey out to people on my mailing list and ask, in the coming year what do you think are the main needs for education around artificial intelligence. Ive been analyzing that data and one of the things that keeps coming out is a waiting for permission. People are in a holding bay. Weve tried it out. Weve realized its risky. Some things are amazing. We also realize there could be long term disruption to the system. Where do we go? We dont know.

I was in a school on Monday in Sussex and did a full day with their staff then an hour with the leadership team and the same thing came out. Where do we go? Theres almost a lack of judgment. The ability to judge this technology and where we should go is not developed, and thats nobodys fault. Its brand new. It affects every area of life.

We dont know what to do or we are afraid to make a judgment because it could be wrong. I was reading that Barack Obama used to make a decision when he reached 51 percent certainty. A lot of leaders go higher, but he would act at 51 percent. When he sent the team in to get Bin Laden, they had no idea he was in that house. They had no conclusive evidence. But as soon as he got to 51 percent certainty, he sent them in.

We celebrate what leaders get right, but we dont see what they get wrong. Someone was telling me, I was with the CEO of Venture Ed, we went for coffee and he brought up that Federer, the greatest male tennis player ever, only won something like 52 percent of his shots. I dont think that is the statistic. Yeah, its around that. But he made those shots in the moments he needed to.

It fascinates me that at the moment we are waiting for 100 percent certainty. Its those people who get to 51 percent and go lets do it, that will be at the forefront of this. Theyll be the ones that have taken those risks and its paid off.

Phillippa Wraithmell: Yeah. And I think its not even just about being at the forefront, but making it accessible to everybody else as well, because if theyve gone down that road then its more acceptable for us to go down that road.

Dan Fitzpatrick: Yeah. Not every school can be an innovative school. But if a certain amount of schools start to explore new avenues and make crucial decisions about where they want to go, then it could bring the rest of education with it.

I know people will say, what if its the wrong decision, our primary concern is childrens futures. We dont want to get it wrong because that could be a whole generation or a whole year group youve failed. My response is dont make a decision that two weeks later you cant put back to normal. Draw the line there. Dont make the type of decision you cant roll back.

Im trying to develop a framework around this to take with me as I work with schools. Theres a real need for helping leaders on how to make crucial decisions because I think we have never had to make these brave decisions before. Its not just do we allow a laptop in the classroom. It could impact lives in a major way, and also the risk of not acting. We focus on the risk of what we do, but its also a huge risk, maybe a greater risk, in what we dont do. Sitting on the fence is going to be just as risky as going forward.

Which one are you going to do?

Phillippa Wraithmell: I think as well, in a world where its inevitable that it is there, people in education have to support students and teachers to understand that of course there are negatives and there are risks, but there are with everything. There are risks with crossing the road, but we do things to mitigate those risks. By not teaching, we put people at far greater risk because of ignorance and lack of knowledge.

One of the things I was keen to ask was around ethics, but also the pressure on yourself to say this is a good idea, you should do it. How have you found and navigated that journey with schools? You work globally with so many people. You can tell people and advise and support them and they will do what they decide is right, but how have you found that journey?

Dan Fitzpatrick: I probably dont see myself as someone who is there to go do this or do that. I take the approach of design thinking that informs a lot of what I do, starting with empathy and looking at what are the needs.

Thats not me going into a school and determining what your needs are. Its facilitating a team within the school to look at what their own needs are. Once you start there, I can help direct by saying I have seen this work in another school, or this tool is pretty good, try it out. Ultimately, like you say, its them that have to make the decision. At some point I walk away and they are responsible legally for that school.

I try to present options, give advice with caveats and say this might be good for you. Its like a mentor relationship, going from what I know from your school I think this might be the best option, but letting them decide.

Its a tough one. With a technology that has many issues, its really difficult to recommend. Some of the terms and conditions might change a week later and all of a sudden its not suitable for a 16 year old youve recommended it to. Its a really difficult area in such a fast moving landscape.

But youve got to educate. If somebody listening is responsible for this in their school, youve got to continually educate yourself and stay up to date. If youre going to make that decision, dont just make it and forget about it. You have to stay informed on that decision. You have to measure the impact.

Its a tricky era, but every major decision in your own life is like that as well. You want to make sure no one is being harmed and that the benefits are being realized while mitigating those harms.

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Phillippa Wraithmell: Absolutely. And I think its a really interesting part to bring in the rapid pace at which a lot of governments and global organizations have brought in frameworks. This is probably tricky to answer, but what are your favorites or what bits do you think, thank goodness that was written down on paper by somebody at that level?

Do you mean global frameworks?

Dan Fitzpatrick: Yeah.

Phillippa Wraithmell: So weve obviously had the EU AI Act, advice from UNESCO, frameworks coming out from ACD, all these massive organizations, code.org have got an AI implementation plan. What have you seen that you go, thank goodness that was written down by somebody at that level?

Dan Fitzpatrick: You know what, in a way Im not going to answer your question mainly because I think a lot of the frameworks are very similar. This is not to disparage them because an off the shelf framework is amazing. It saves time and you get a sense of what everybody else is using.

If you sat down a team in your school for a day and did a workshop, they would probably come out with something very similar. I dont think they are necessarily groundbreaking.

A lot of frameworks are based on risk mitigation, which is important. Its needed as a first step. They look at data privacy, academic integrity, dependency. There are no real answers yet, research is still being done, but frameworks might say use this scale. All of that is good.

When I first go into a school I say thats your first step. Draw your lines in the sand and build confidence that your stakeholders know where you stand. You have a grip of it, you are using this safely if youre using it at all.

What concerns me is what happens next. Its what I try to focus on. I wrote my book Infinite Education, which came out about this time last year. Its a strategy book, but not in the way most people view strategy. Most strategy books are framework books. That is needed, but its more about where do you want to be in five years, eight years, whatever, and how do you get there.

After we have laid the foundation, data safe, children protected, staff trained, all the components of an average framework, once we have got that done, where do we want to be in five years time?

I often go back to something my dad used to say. He used to say, throw your hat over the wall. When you come up against a brick wall and you dont know how to get over it, throw your hat over. If you want that hat back, youre going to have to find a way to get over it.

For me, the strategic plan or framework is secondary. The strategy is throwing the hat over the wall and saying, in five years time this is who we will be. This is who we want our students to be. This is what we want our staff to be. Then you figure out how to get over the wall.

It doesnt matter if you fall off the wall. It doesnt matter if you climb the wrong wall and spend time, then realize this route isnt going to work. Go back and try another way. What matters is getting over the wall, not necessarily the way you get over it.

Frameworks help with the first few steps but they dont get us over the wall. We need something else. I dont have an answer to that, and it feels like a cop out, but it goes back to what we were saying. When I go into a school, I dont have an answer for that school necessarily. Its up to the school to come with an answer for themselves, because how they get over the wall will be very different to how another school gets over the wall.

I think thats a good thing because for many years the route to success has been the same for every school. Because of how our standardized system is set up, its been the same route.

If we truly want to innovate in an AI world, which is coming fast, I dont think we realize how fast and how disrupted it probably will be, then each school, trust, district, group of schools, or government will have to think how do we do this based on who our students are, who our people are, what our ambitions are, and not just follow the same line we always have.

That causes tension. Yesterday I was with a group of leaders and straight away you come up against, yeah but in year 11 or year 13 they have to sit in an exam hall and write down in a booklet the information theyve learned. Although we like to say thats not what we measure schools on, it kind of is.

There is a big tension. I call that a liminal space. We are in a space between how things were and how things could be. In psychology thats a really difficult place to be. It can ruin some people, but it can also make some people, and it depends on hope.

So going back to frameworks, pick a framework, adapt it, tick the boxes of regulation, get that done. Then pull a team together. My book Infinite Education is how you do this. Its a step by step process on how to bring a team together, what to do, what tasks you can do to get ideas flowing. Then start looking at how youre going to throw that hat over the wall.

When you do it, dont think about the wall because if you see how big it is youre not going to throw your hat. Youll start doubting yourself. You almost have to close your eyes and throw the hat, then go right how do we get over.

That links back to the judgment thing. If you start going but this but that and overwhelm yourself, you land in decision paralysis. To a large extent, thats where many of us are at the moment.

Phillippa Wraithmell: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Im a big fan of a hat, although Im not very good at throwing. I love that and I hope your dads very proud that youve been telling everybody it. Its a nice way to think about it.

It reminded me of that image with two children appearing over the wall and then you see the back of the wall and one of them is stood on a little stool because you couldnt see over the wall. How do I get to see what everyone else can see? Thats more about leadership, but it is that same, I think its equity. It represents equity.

But in a similar way, and it probably supports that its not going to be the same for every school. Some schools are going to need more support, different demographics.

I always talk about ticky tacky little boxes on the hillside, which you probably know from that lovely song that everyone sings in primary school. They talk about how they all look just the same.

Dan Fitzpatrick: You dont know it.

Phillippa Wraithmell: Oh Im going to have to find it.

Dan Fitzpatrick: Can you sing it for me? I might recognize it.

Phillippa Wraithmell: Im joking. I cant even remember where it was from, but we used to sing it every week in assembly in primary school. It was about houses on the hillside and they all look the same. I always talk about how schools arent schools. Even with every single child sat in those rooms, you might have 30 children in every room, doesnt mean youve got the same 30 children. Youve not got the same 30 teachers, the same furniture, anything, its so different. We have to meet schools where theyre at.

So tell me a little bit about the handbook because you didnt just write one book last year, you wrote two.

Dan Fitzpatrick: Technically I didnt write that book. I edited it. A lot of amazing people wrote it.

Back in 2024, I write for Forbes every week and there was a series of articles where I thought I could put these together and it could be a guidebook. I put it on my website for free. Then I had a lot of people saying could we have a print version. I didnt know how to do that, so the simplest way was to publish it on Amazon. Amazon take a cut, so I put it on cost price, like three pounds, and it all went to Amazon. People got a printed copy and it went down really well. It became a bestseller in a few categories on Amazon, for something that took me a few hours.

It got me thinking, could we do this every year? This moves at such a fast pace. It would be nice to have an annual handbook that teachers and leaders could use, to give them ideas and guidance for the year ahead.

So we did it again. We released it in August last year. Its called The Educators AI Guide 2026, but we released it halfway through 2025, with the idea it would be the book for the next 12 to 18 months.

As I started to think about it, I thought, there are so many good people talking about this, writing amazing things and doing amazing things. Lets put their voices in.

We made it of three parts. The first part was what tools are educators using. Different chapters like what tools teachers are using for accessibility, assessment, admin jobs. We split it into categories and surveyed over 2,000 teachers from around the world. We asked, whats your best tool, why do you use it, what impact is it having. We worked out a top 10 for each category and put the teacher voices in.

Because we were mentioning specific tools, it gave us a way to fund the book. This was never to make a profit. I reached out to some of the companies mentioned and said do you want to sponsor it, well put your logo on the front. It was a nice way to do a 360 on the subject. Leadership voices, teacher voices, but also the companies creating the technology.

Sometimes in education we hold those companies at arms length, and for good reason, we need to figure out their motivation. But having worked with so many tech companies, there are many good people making these tools and genuinely sitting down day after day with teachers with a mindset of how do I solve a problem for teachers. So it allowed us to put their voice in too.

The obvious omission is the student voice, which we didnt include for practical and logistical reasons, but it will come eventually.

Then I wanted clear case studies of how schools were doing this. I reached out and said Im looking for seven different types of schools integrating AI in seven different ways. I came up with a loose framework based on my experience of different integration routes. We got case studies from schools all over the world, conscious to put impact and evidence in.

The last section is the ethical questions, the big things people want to grapple with. Experts took those. We had an economist from California on sustainability, Karen Boyd. Matthew Williams looked at security and data. Kingsley wrote on governance and ethics. Victoria Hedland wrote about bias.

Im always overwhelmed when people approach you, at a random event or on a low day, and an email pops in saying they love the book and are using it. What I keep hearing is people saying it stays on my desk. Thats what we wanted, something you can dip in and out of throughout the year. Im really proud of it.

As were now in 2026, we are gearing up for the 2027 guide, hopefully out in September. If youre out there and doing amazing things with AI, making an impact, got case studies, watch out. Ill start putting announcements out in the next few weeks about how you can contribute. Thanks for mentioning that, Phillippa.

Phillippa Wraithmell: No, its brilliant. I think its going to be awesome. And exactly the same, I think the teacher voice bit.

One of the things I was going to bring up was the Forbes articles you wrote. Quite recently you did some shout outs and ones to watch. What are your predictions or aspirations that youre seeing coming through from different educators and things that maybe other people should watch out for?

Dan Fitzpatrick: Ive always tried to make this about sharing those voices. Not from some altruistic motive, more that there are loads of people who say things better than I can. This is such a vast topic that little specialities are forming. Someone dedicates their time and research to a certain aspect, they are the best people to listen to, because theyre doing things the rest of us dont have time to do. Putting those voices out is important for the wider community.

I used to work in a school where the attitude from leadership was to not share, even with a local school, because it was seen as a competitor. It used to blow my mind and makes me sad. The kids from our school are playing with the kids from that school on evenings and weekends. The schools are half a mile away. For us not to care about those children but care about the children who arbitrarily went to our school, it feels like an outcome of the system about how we measure success.

Ive always believed its about empowering all teachers to make the lives of children more successful, doesnt matter where they are from.

Around a week before Christmas it occurred to me I hadnt prepared any end of year content. I saw lots of people doing top 10 lists, and I thought Ive gathered great stuff from this year. I should do that. So for every day for a week on Forbes I did top 10 podcasts, top 10 bits of research from this year on AI in education, top 10 books over the last 12 months. I wont mention any specifically, but if you type Dan Fitzpatrick Forbes youll find them.

It goes to show theres so much good information and practice. If youre in a school trying to figure this out, it is a personal journey, but we dont have to do it alone. There are so many people sharing their experiences and expertise.

Phillippa Wraithmell: Yeah, absolutely. And Ive found over the last 10 years working with edtech, its the most incredible community of people who want to raise each other up and help support each other. Its not about closing doors, its about opening them. A lot of the time theres a lot of big hugs happening.

And that brings me nicely on to where we will all be in a couple of weeks time at BET. So I am assuming that you will be there. Tell us a little bit about some of the things youre going to be getting up to that week.

Dan Fitzpatrick: Yeah. I always try to be at BET if I can. Its good for this community to get together. Ill be there. Ive got a few things going on.

If you want to come and say hello, if you want a free book, there will be a few book signing opportunities. I will be at the Everway stand doing some stuff with the people at Everway talking about technology and accessibility. Come along and see me. I think its going to be at half 11.

Then Im giving a talk with Nick from Venture Ed. We are going to do a joint talk on how parental engagement is a key to helping students be successful at school, and how technology can enable that. At the minute, a lot of technology is not helping. If youve got a child at school, youll know how many apps you have to download, how many repetitive messages you get. Parental engagement can be done better with technology.

Im going to be doing some stuff with the people at Kahoot. I really love what they are doing around AI. What stands out is they are not just making AI tools for teachers, but putting AI into the hands of students. Students can take what they need to learn and produce resources, quizzes and so on with Kahoot. Im going to spend time with John Neill at Kahoot on the Wednesday.

A few other things during the week. I wont go through everything. Im in danger of reading out my diary. Ill post online about where Im going to be, but if youre listening and youre going to BET, please do come say hello and grab a free copy of the book, The Educators AI Guide.

Phillippa Wraithmell: Awesome. Thank you so much, Dan, for being with us. Its been a pleasure and a joy to listen to you talking around AI in such a different way with different perspectives. Thank you so much for your time.

Dan Fitzpatrick: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Phillippa Wraithmell: No worries.

Youve been listening to The EdTech Podcast with myself, Phillippa Wraithmell, and our guest Dan Fitzpatrick. This episode leaves us with an important reminder. AI in education isnt just a technical challenge. Its a leadership one. The real work sits in judgment, values, and willingness to act responsibly without waiting for perfect answers. Frameworks, regulation, and guidance matters, but they are only the starting point.

What follows is the hard work of deciding who we want our learners to become, what kind of systems we want to build, and how we can support schools to move forward without leaving people behind. If youre heading to BET, Dan will be there. And if not, you can explore his writing, books and The Educators AI Guide to dive deeper into themes we have discussed today.

As always, youll find links and resources in the show notes. And if this episode has sparked reflection or raised new questions, share it with someone in your network, a school leader, policy maker, or educator navigating AI decisions right now.

Thanks for listening, and well see you next time on The EdTech Podcast.

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